338_ Strategies for Those Grieving During the Holidays (Rebroadcast)

Strategies for Those Grieving During the Holidays offers suggestions and insights for all coping with loss, not only from the death of loved ones but also from  unfulfilled dreams, health challenges, missed opportunities, etc. 
 
Guest Krista St-Germain, a grief expert, highlights the differences between depression (a broader, general sadness) and grief (which is more specific to the loss itself). She emphasizes that grief can stem from any perceived loss, not just death, and suggests that holidays, often associated with idealized family gatherings, can amplify these feelings when someone is missing or things have changed.

Krista encourages listeners to communicate their needs clearly during the holiday season. If someone is grieving, they may not want the typical festive activities, but they should be able to express their preferences—whether they need solitude or companionship. The episode also touches on the importance of setting boundaries, even if it disappoints others.

Krista introduces a technique called "NOW" (Name, Open, Witness) to help process emotions by naming them, opening up to them, and witnessing their physical sensations, helping people cope with intense feelings.

The hosts reflect on the significance of giving oneself permission to feel and accept disappointment, both from oneself and others. They discuss the value of honoring one's emotions and boundaries during the holidays and the challenges of dealing with external expectations. The episode provides helpful advice for those navigating grief or depression during a time when societal pressure for happiness can make emotional struggles feel even more intense.

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Transcript

Episode 338_For Those Grieving During the Holidays-TRANSCRIPT

Terry: Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey they share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there's something wrong with us. Instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Anita: And I'm Dr. Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope, despite what depression tells you. 

Terry: This podcast is brought to you by recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. 

Anita: We record a couple of new interviews each month, and we also replace some older ones so that our newer listeners don't miss out on some of our best ones. 

Terry: This episode was originally produced with sponsorship from the AB Korkor Foundation for Mental Health. 

Anita: Hi Terry. 

Terry: Hello, Anita. So we are starting this episode with an assumption: You are not listening to a depression podcast during the holiday season because you love everything about this time of year and are in such a carefree and celebratory spirit that optimism, joy and hope just sparkle in your life like holiday lights. And if you do feel that way, well, good on you. This episode is for people who don't fit into that category, specifically people who might be experiencing grief, depression, or a combination of the two right now. And that grief may be something altogether different than the loss of a cherished person. 

Anita: A Psychology Today article titled Working Through Grief during the Holidays, does a great job of explaining some of the many ways that our grief might be triggered, experienced and even expanded this time of year. Things that are good for grieving people to understand, and also for those who may be wanting to learn a little bit more about what the people grieving might be experiencing and wanting. So quoting from the article, which we will link to: "In life, rituals provide a sense of direction, stability and an anchor for us as we move through the year. We may not realize how much we enjoy the rituals in our lives until something happens to disrupt their occurrence or shift the composition of the group with whom we celebrate or mark them. Family dinners, carpooling, holiday gift giving, special desserts and so on may all play a significant role in the shape of our lives. And when someone is missing, we mourn their absence at an event, but also recognize that the ritual and the celebration have inalterably changed as well. The joy and safety that rituals provide may be interrupted by intense sadness, despair, feelings of loneliness and anxiety as new ways of doing things must be found. Our guest today is grief expert Krista St-Germain. while her life and work focus on spousal loss and grief, our conversation today focuses on depression, grief and the holidays. So here now is Krista giving her voice to depression. 

Terry: Okay, so let's start with depression and grief and the ways that they're different and the ways that they inevitably overlap. 

Krista St-Germain: Yeah. I think they can be quite similar in that we're feeling sad, right? We're having physical symptoms. We're struggling to concentrate. We might want to withdraw socially. But what I find is that depression is more broad, right? It's about things in general. Whereas grief is very specific about the loss and the effects of the loss. So it's not so generalized. But a lot of people do get it confused and wonder if what they're experiencing as grief, right, is depression and vice versa. 

Terry: Well, when you say the effects of the loss, that could be a lot broader. 

Krista St-Germain: Right. I think some of the questions you can consider are, am I sad about my whole entire life and the prospect of my future? Right? Am I feeling hopeless about everything? Or are there are there pockets where I'm not feeling hopeless? I'm not feeling like I don't want to get out of bed for that. And I don't ever want anyone to think that I am trying to diagnose. I am definitely not, right? So I do think it's important to talk with a professional who is trained in that way, but not uncommon at all to wonder or to sadly be maybe misguided when you do go to a therapist or someone who isn't trained to diagnose who tells you you have depression, when what's really going on actually looks more like natural grief. 

Terry: And it's interesting because thinking about talking to you, I have in my mind, separated those two things in many times in my life. But I'm also aware that the experience of depression, which I have, involves grief because whenever you have lost, you know, not just a just like the word just belongs in that sentence, when you have lost an opportunity, you've lost a future, you've lost the life you envisioned, you've lost the sense of yourself that you would like to feel and project. And now it's different because of this illness. 

Krista St-Germain: And I'm so glad you said that, because usually when people think of grief, they do tend to think of bereavement. 

Terry: Yes. 

Krista St-Germain: But really, grief, if we're using a more appropriate definition, is just a natural human response to a perceived loss. And as you said, a perceived loss can be, you know, so many things beyond death. Right. So what was what is the quality of my life that I lost in the last X number of years where I didn't realize I had depression and wasn't getting help for it? And now I know and I experience grief about what I've now missed out on because I didn't get support within the last five years, right? That's that's grief too. 

Terry: And it might be a partner or a child's illness, whether that's depression or, you know, in my world, it's a I'm thinking of mental illnesses, but it can be any chronic illness, any, any anything. And that affects you. 

Krista St-Germain: 100% or something going on in the world or the loss of a job or, you know, something happening within a specific culture. Like there's so many things. It can even be sometimes surprisingly preceded by a significant accomplishment. It's the most fascinating thing to me, where I see a lot of people that will often set a goal, and then go accomplish that goal, and then experience grief because what they thought would happen when they got that goal didn't happen and it felt like a loss. So they expected that they would feel better or that their problems would be solved. Maybe they they got the promotion, they finished the degree, they got the job, they found the relationship, and it's exactly what they thought they wanted. But then because they didn't feel as good as they anticipated they would, it feels like a loss. 

Terry: Interesting. So since this is going to post in December and we are inundated with all things holiday, I mean, the bar is so high. Happy, happy, happiest season of all. I mean it's it's in my mind, a little ridiculous. But I spoke with a therapist this morning who said that as soon as the commercials start coming out and you see the Norman Rockwell scenes and everybody from grandma and grandpa to the new healthy baby, you know, they're all smiling. They're all happy. They're all together. They all get along ,that that can trigger grief and that can trigger depression as well. So let's talk about how we get through the holidays if we're experiencing anything, because when that spotlight is on family, and that picture of the family that I just said and one of those seats is empty. It's magnified. 

Krista St-Germain: And I love that you said the hap hap happiest.... 

Terry: Oh jeez...

Krista St-Germain: That's exactly what I say, too!. That's what I do feel like the pressure is, and especially if there has been a loss and I don't want to generalize too much, but I but speaking as a woman who has been socialized to believe that it is my job to make everyone else around me happy. (Ditto.) Right? 

Krista St-Germain: It it's even more magnified. 

Krista St-Germain: So I think just straight out of the gate normalizing that it's a hard time of the year anyway because of all of the pressures that are put on us and that we put on ourselves helps. And then also giving ourselves permission if we are experiencing something more intense than normal, to pause and really reconsider. What do I want this season to look like? What are all those expectations that I'm inclined to put on myself that maybe I want to say no to this year, Right. Just because it's always been the way it's always been doesn't mean it has to be that way. If that's not what feels good and supportive to me. So I don't have to do the same traditions. I don't have to spend the holidays with the same people or travel or, you know, say yes to all the things I usually say yes to that I really don't want to say yes to. You know, I can just give myself permission to rewrite the rulebook this season differently. And I think that's so important. 

Terry: And doing that is going to, in many instances, you know, have a pushback. Yeah. 

Krista St-Germain: And as as you're saying that,. 

Krista St-Germain: I also think if we choose to rewrite what we want to do, it's it's helpful to tell people that that's what we want. And especially if someone's experiencing a loss that is maybe recent, people around us tend to think that it's their job to try to lift us up and brighten our spirits and make us happy and, you know, take away our emotion as though how we're feeling is a problem. But sometimes they can tend to want to do the holiday season in exactly the opposite way of what we feel would be supportive of us. So maybe we we want it to be really quiet and they think they need to bring the fanfare, right. And the bells and whistles and the parties. Or maybe the opposite. Maybe they think we want to be left alone. And what we really want is to be, you know, with people. Point being, whatever it is we want, we kind of have to communicate it or we're probably not going to get it. And then even when we do, to your point, people might not like it. And we have to be okay with that. 

Krista St-Germain: We have to be willing for them to not understand and not like it and still, you know, do what's best for us because we're the authority on that. 

Terry: So given that our losses tend to affect those around us as well, to a lesser degree in many instances. But what if your needs, your desires for this time of year are in conflict with what they want? And so it's not like the grandparents want to make a big deal out of this or something. It's the other people in our house. How do you all have your needs met if they are not the same? 

Krista St-Germain: Yeah, I don't know that we can guarantee that we will. Right. Our best hope is just to communicate what what we want and do our best to articulate that to other people so that they know, but then also take responsibility for taking care of ourselves when people don't want to do it our way. Right. 

Terry: And and allowing for them, you know, if they need to go to their room or if they, you know. 

Krista St-Germain: Rught, like, you know, for. 

Krista St-Germain: Some people they may really want to talk about what's happened. Some people may not want to talk about it at all. That doesn't make either party wrong, but it does mean that they're wanting different things. So if you really want to talk about it and you're around a family member who has told you that they don't, then respect that, but also find someone who you can talk about it with. Right. I think there's ways we can get what it is that we're hoping to have without directly conflicting with the person in our household, for the most part if we're communicating about it. 

Terry: Not all Krista's holiday communication tips relate to how we talk with others. We can really do a number on ourselves, too. One way is with what Krista calls "should thinking." 

Krista St-Germain: Right? When we go into the holidays, thinking that we should do it in particular ways, or we should feel particular emotions or we shouldn't feel other emotions, then we're just kind of setting ourselves up for failure in the beginning, right? Because "should thoughts" never feel very good anyway. But also, who says it's supposed to be that way, Right? So so dropping that I think is helpful. 

Terry: Another thought pattern to be aware of and even challenge is pre feeling bad feelings in anticipation of events. 

Krista St-Germain: And this is with holidays. This is with any sort of upcoming date or event that we feel ick around or dread around. I find that. 95% of the time, the lead up is so much worse than the actual experience because we're telling ourselves usually that we don't want to feel a particular way. And I understand why we do that, because at least I know from my own life, nobody really taught me how to feel my feelings until I was in my mid-forties. So not having those skills or not having a lot of confidence around our ability to handle emotions has us wanting to pull up the covers and, like, come out January 1st, right? But if we know that the worst thing that can happen is going to be a feeling, and if we decide on purpose and maybe practice a little bit in advance that we know how to feel feelings and that we're willing to feel them right. They're just experiences in our body that they're really not problems to solve. They really are just experiences that will pass. And then we stop dreading them so much because we actually believe we can let them flow through. And there's so many different ways to do that. Then the dread lessens, right? It's like turning down the dial on the intensity of the dread. And also, when we get there, it's just usually so much less awful than we expected it would be, right? Because it's just feelings. 

Terry: So you learned at 44 how to feel your feelings, how to honor them is a word. How did you learn it and what did you learn? Because many of us still haven't. 

Krista St-Germain: I know, right? So I like to teach it in an acronym that is called N-O-W. That wasn't how I learned it, but that is how I find it easiest to teach. And then also, I'm a big fan of emotional freedom technique tapping. I find that is magical for me to process of feeling.. 

Terry: I like it too. 

Krista St-Germain: But now is just Name. Open. Witness. And what I mean by that is literally give the emotion that you're feeling and name. You write, sometimes I'll put my my hand on my heart first because that feels good to me. But like, okay, this is sadness. This is anger. This is regret. This is whatever it is, right? This is name it. And then do what is counterintuitive to the primitive part of our brain that wants to get away from emotion, which is instead of recoiling from it or closing off to it, to open and breathe in. So naming it, opening up to it, being like genuinely willing to let it flow through. And then the W in now is witness, which means instead of getting all caught up in the story of the emotion and where the emotion kind of wants to take me, I come back to my body and just notice what the experience of the emotion is like in my body, and witness it so that I could describe it to someone who's never felt it before. Like a robot, you know, like a little buzz in my belly. Or it's it feels like, you know, my belly wants to drop out or it's like a tingling in my throat. And it's that feeling that you get right before you cry or it's, you know, my face feels flushed and flushed and buzzy like, what is it actually like in my body? And I'm witnessing it and describing it. And when I stay with that, then it flows through. 

Terry: There's that element of even when we're trying to respect our own feelings, our own emotions, our own grief, our own depression, our own, all of it, that running into resistance from other people who expect us to be or feel or act, at least act, they probably don't even care as much how we feel a certain way during the holidays can be really, really hard. So we can do all the right things for ourselves and we can, you know, now and open and let that feeling go through. But if someone's saying, Hey, get out here and sing carols or whatever it might be, that's a whole other level of trying to do the holidays. 

Krista St-Germain: Yeah, I kind of think about it sometimes, it helps me to think about ;Somebody's probably going to be disappointed here. So do I want it to be me because I said yes to something I don't really want to do? Or do I want it to be them? 

Krista St-Germain: And as opposed to thinking about trying to avoid the possibility that anyone feels disappointed. It's easier for me to accept that no, somebody probably will. And I don't want it to be me. Like I, you know, I can advocate for myself. And if the other person is disappointed, that's kind of on them, right? I didn't cause that. They may think I did, but I didn't cause that. That's caused by how they think about me denying their request when they're used to me saying yes to everything they want me to do. But that's what boundaries are about. And if somebody's going to be disappointed, I'd rather not be me. 

Terry: You have learned so much from a recovering people pleaser here. That's impressive. 

Krista St-Germain: And I am very much a recovering people pleaser. And I also think that one of the keys that we're on the right track there is when we're advocating for ourselves or, you know, drawing a boundary, it's probably going to feel uncomfortable. And that's a good thing, right? So if we're like tempted to think that we're being selfish or greedy, or starting to feel a little guilty, that's probably a sign that we're actually drawing a really healthy boundary. It's just that it's so unfamiliar because of how we've been in the past and how we've been socialized. We're so used to pleasing others that it does feel really awful to actually say, No, I'm not going to do that. 

Anita: All right. So what jumped out for you, Terry? 

Terry: I thought it was really important to acknowledge that grief certainly includes losing a person for whom you care deeply. But it is any loss. And I really appreciate the fact that she dialed that in because, you know, I just read something today where a woman was talking about that she's just not where she expected to be at this point in her life and that that's what she grieves over the holidays. And all of that needs to be acknowledged. 

Anita: I'm I'm with you. There's there's losses of dreams, hopes, jobs, opportunities, possibilities. There's the grief that comes with processing getting a diagnosis, whether it's health or a mental health diagnosis. There are just many, many different forms of grieving things that we we wished for. We wanted. We were hoping for. And it isn't always just a person, but the experience, the grieving process is the same. And it and it certainly takes the same amount of energy out of a person, you know? 

Terry: Absolutely. 

Terry: Yeah. I really loved when she was talking about mindfulness and sort of the ways of just allowing yourself to name what you're feeling. I think she called it now name, own and witness. I love anything that, again, is reality based. And so she's she's not asking people to, you know, just cheer up or anything like that. It's just like just be present with it gives you a little bit of a distance, you know, from it to do the naming process. But then just letting things be as they are in the moment, even though it sounds like that could be so awful when the moment itself is awful. But it's real. It's what it is. If you can just sit with it, it will pass. And the witnessing part of it is, is I think, paying respects for what you are actually feeling and going through. Yeah. And I love that. That doesn't does not suggest that the goal needs to be to cheer yourself up or be happier or, you know, anything like that, whether it's the holidays or any other time. So I just I really liked that. I like that she she really expanded on that. 

Terry: And as somebody who still struggles with boundaries and really was not taught that, and I'm not blaming anyone because I also have not learned it and I'm a grown up, I could have learned it by now. But like that somebody is going to be mad and I don't want it to be me. When she said that, I mean, my jaw dropped. I'm like, Wait, what? You know, because that's just not how I was programed. And and I think that having boundaries and giving yourself permission and even having that play in my head saying, well, somebody is going to be disappointed that I'm not honoring all the traditions or that I'm not even going to show up, which is actually the case this year, but I don't want it to be me. And that is so freeing. It's like if you know somebody is going to be mad anyway. Right. And probably be mad if I showed up and if I showed up with the dip I always bring or the pie I always make or whatever, still something's going to go down. Yeah. 

Terry: Yeah. No, I loved that she said that. And and, you know, to add on to this, I always say it can help to to kind of frame it in your mind when, you know somebody is going to be disappointed that you giving you give them permission to be disappointed. So you're allowed to be upset. You're allowed to be mad at me. You're allowed to be disappointed. And you give people permission. Wow. And then it's sort of like, yeah, we're not in a fight. We're not in a conflict. I don't need to avoid it. You're allowed to be. You're allowed to be that way. You can be disappointed. It's all right. 

Terry: It takes some wind out of the sails. Yeah. 

Anita: Because we're not we're not trying to prevent it. I'm saying you're allowed your feelings. You're allowed to be disappointed that I'm not able to bring this or make this or be this or do that. You're allowed. It's okay. 

Terry: When you say you can be mad at me, you can be disappointed. You can think I should be grieving privately or should be over this by now. If you actually say that out loud. What's your experience been with how that's received? And is that even the right question? 

Anita: I don't I'm not sure how it would be received from every person. Some people might be like, you're allowing me. But but really, it really just it's kind of like we're going to preempt the storm. We know it's we know it's possibly coming. Someone's going to be disappointed in us. Wouldn't it be better to forecast it and and allow it? So you're allowed to be you're allowed to be upset. You're allowed to be disappointed. You're allowed to be frustrated, whatever it is. Because then that's not the point of contention. I don't have to avoid it if I'm giving you permission to be that way. So it's really just to allow us to be okay with it. If you think you're going to get blowback from anyone about setting a boundary, it's really good to own own the word that you think may come at you. So if somebody's calling you a name or accusing you of being selfish or or uncaring, what I usually tell people is, you know, wear your imaginary T-shirt and bling it out with that word, you know, so that you're owning it. You can call me your again, We're giving people permission. You're allowed to think that I am being selfish. You're here. You're allowed. It's okay. I'm not going to try to control what you think, what you feel, what you want from me. But just in the not attempting to control it or avoid it, I think gives you a little bit more personal power in a situation to set probably a very healthy boundary for yourself. 

Anita: And when we're talking about grieving, the idea that we even half do is a little offensive. It's like, I'm sorry. You want me to behave how? You want me to perform so that you're comfortabl? Because that's basically what it is. 

Anita: But but that is an expectation of some people. Is that certain things. Certain things absolutely should trump whatever it is that's going on in your life. 

Terry: Can't you put it aside for the night? 

Anita: Yes, that's right. Don't bring everyone down. You know, it's sort of like as if that's your intention as opposed to just being who you are authentically. But yeah,. 

Anita: Anytime somebody has an expectation that you should be able to perform or to do something that is not right, healthy or possible for you, then that's the necessity for the boundary. 

Anita: And I wish I wish people understood grief and, and how that feels and what it makes you capable of doing and incapable of doing. But. 

Anita: We're not a very grief-educated society. Death and grief we kind of put away. We don't want to think about it or talk about it. So if people understood more that a grieving person is doing the best that they can, regardless of the situation, they probably wouldn't have to set so many you know, they wouldn't even have to set the boundary like you're saying. 

Terry: And if we're talking about grief and depression, you know, well, come on, you know, talk about two misunderstood things or not understood or not discussed. So, yeah, I'm really grateful to Krista. Another thing that she said really helps her is EFT or tapping, which can sound a little woo woo. But I have to tell you, it helps me. 

Anita: It helps a lot of people. 

Terry: Good. Well, we'll link to an episode we did years ago on it and Brad was the practitioner I guess is the right word. And he walks us through, walked us through some practices. And so that'll be something that we'll link to with this episode in addition to the article. 

Anita: That's great. That's great. 

Anita: So we hope to have you join us again next week and together we'll get through these holidays and hopefully even enjoy them. Yeah. 

Anita: We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helped you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Anita: If this episode has been of comfort or value to you know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember if you are struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard if someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.