NEW 329 The Importance of Baby Steps

In the podcast episode "The Importance of Baby Steps," Terry and Dr. Anita Sanz discuss the profound journey of Jenni, a guest who battled nearly a decade of persistent depression following a series of traumatic life events. The conversation highlights the overwhelming nature of depression, which can make even small steps seem daunting. Jenni recounts her struggles, including chronic pain, the loss of loved ones, and a deteriorating marriage, emphasizing how these factors compounded her depression.

The episode emphasizes the significance of taking "baby steps" towards recovery, which Jenni began to implement as she sought to reclaim her life. Despite the challenges, she focused on small, manageable actions—such as reading uplifting memoirs, attending social events, and engaging in creative pursuits—that gradually helped her regain hope and energy. Ultimately, Jenni shares how these incremental efforts led her to a breakthrough, symbolized by finding a new home she refers to as her "house of peace."

Throughout the discussion, Terry and Anita stress the importance of self-care and maintaining hope, particularly for those currently struggling with depression. They highlight that while recovery is a long and challenging process, it is possible through consistent, small actions. The episode concludes with a message of encouragement, underscoring that joy and peace can emerge even after prolonged periods of darkness, and that listeners should believe in their potential for healing.

Jenni's Facebook page- Barefoot, Brave and Bold:  https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61565516246115

https://recovery.com/
https://givingvoicetodepression.com/

Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/GivingVoiceToDepression/
X (formerly Twitter): https://x.com/VoiceDepression
Dr. Anita Sanz's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-anita-sanz-746b8223/
Terry's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/givingvoicetodepression/

Transcript

329 The Importance of Baby Steps

Terry [00:00:04] Hello and welcome to the Giving Voice to Depression podcast brought to you by recovery.com. Each week we profile a guest who shares intimate details of their mental health journey they share because they understand that when people don't talk about their depression or other mental health conditions, those of us who struggle with them can feel like we're the only ones, that there's something wrong with us. Instead of understanding that we have a common and treatable illness. I'm Terry, the creator and co-host of this podcast. 

Anita [00:00:32] And I'm Dr. Anita Sanz, a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 25 years in clinical practice. I know from both personal and professional experience how significantly mental health and other disorders can impact not just our lives, but those around us as well. By speaking openly and with the wisdom of lived experience, we help normalize conversations that are often avoided due to shame or stigma. Our episodes are honest and real, and we keep them hopeful because there truly is hope despite what depression tells you. 

Terry [00:01:07] This podcast is brought to you by Recovery.com, whose mission is to help each person find the best path to recovery through a comprehensive, helpful network of treatment providers for both mental health and addiction treatment worldwide. Hello, Anita. 

Anita [00:01:26] Hi, Terry. You know, we've all heard that proverb that a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. But it's a safe bet that for anyone listening who is in the throes of depression, it's not just the thousand miles that sounds overwhelming, but likely the single step as well. And we get it. It can be really hard to find the energy or the hope that's required to keep going when it seems that no matter what you do, nothing really changes. And it sure doesn't help that depression is constantly telling you that nothing will change. 

Terry [00:02:01] That is how this week's guest, Jenni felt for close to a decade. While she'd experienced depression before that period, she describes those as "episodes", that were sometimes very deep but always short lived. That changed when the stressors and traumatic events and losses just piled up as unrelentingly as the depression that followed them. 

Anita [00:02:24] This episode is both a plea to never give up and a concrete, real life testimony to the power of consistently taking those baby steps, even when there's no proof that they're leading anywhere. Here now is Jenni giving her voice to depression. 

Terry [00:02:41] A quick note: jenny's computer was down when we talked, so she had to record on her phone. And you're going to hear a little bit of background noise in the interview. But her journey and message are so inspiring that we hope and suspect it won't bother you much. 

Terry [00:03:03] You described yourself as having had a hard fought battle with depression? 

Jenni [00:03:09] Yes, a very hard fought battle. Very hard fought battle. Eight years of pretty much continuous depression. Seldom were there any lifts in mood. I would have, you know, a day here and a day there that seemed okay. But literally during those eight years, I typically look back and describe myself as depressed almost every moment that I was awake. That was a dark place. 

Terry [00:03:35] During that time, Jenni suffered from chronic pain, the death of both a dear friend and her father, as well as her mother's decline into dementia. 

Jenni [00:03:44] And I could just feel myself slipping further and further into depression during that time. And I was functioning, but only as much as I had to. 

Terry [00:03:56] Eventually, she made what she calls the very difficult but necessary decision to place her mother in a nursing home. She says she was just starting to breathe again when one of her sons was in a very, very serious accident. 

Jenni [00:04:09] And by that time, I was very, very deep in my depression, very much struggling with just getting through the day. At that point, I was extremely exhausted, very withdrawn from people struggling to be around people. And I knew that I needed to do something, but I was still so focused on other people at that time that I was had very little focus on myself. I was focused on my son, on my on my mom and other family members. And I just wasn't functioning very well at that point. 

Terry [00:04:45] That level of dysfunction came as a surprise to Jenny, who not only practiced resiliency skills but taught classes on them. 

Jenni [00:04:53] I think any one of those events would have happened, any of them singularly, I feel like I still probably would not have slipped so deep into the depression. But they were piling up just rapidly and I couldn't catch my breath from one event till the next trauma was happening. 

Terry [00:05:13] During that onslaught. Jenni says her marriage was also falling apart. So what does unrelenting depression during this steady assault of horrible things feel like? What does it manifest as? 

Jenni [00:05:32] It was an incredible exhaustion. I would sit in the recliner, pull a cover up over my head and lay there for hours because I had no energy, no motivation to accomplish much of anything during that time. I had a lot of ruminating thoughts that were pretty much all negative, negative about me, negative about the experiences that I was going through. I began to feel extremely worthless, even though I was still when I could accomplishing things. My sense of self-worth was just gone. I just felt like I was in a really, really dark tunnel and that I wasn't going to be able to get out of it. 

Terry [00:06:14] I believe that depression tells us that, right? The way you feel is the way you're always going to feel. And you know, when I personify it, I think it's so that we don't fight. 

Jenni [00:06:23] Exactly. I totally agree with that. And there was a period of time in there where I had no fight in me. None. 

Terry [00:06:31] Jenni says she separated from her husband, which began to move her forward.  In therapy she was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, and started a form of psychotherapy called EMDR. 

Jenni [00:06:44] Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. And we began a trip, a journey on that. And it was very effective for me. I'm not going to say that it's effective for everybody. It was very effective for me in beginning to deal with and reprocess those traumas that had had brought me to that point. 

Terry [00:07:07] Jenny says while the connection between her trauma and depression is clear, working on one did not magically cure the other. But she says it was a significant part in her recovery journey, as was her eventual divorce and the shifts they generated. 

Jenni [00:07:21] I was really wanting really focusing on what can I do to help this depression. I was starting to feel pretty motivated to to get the depression to leave. I wasn't motivated to do much else, but I was motivated to get the depression under control. And I began to realize every single day I needed to start taking baby steps. And I didn't know what they looked like. I didn't know how they would manifest,  what the plan was. But I knew enough to know that I needed to do something daily in the right direction. And I had read something that said there's two kinds of tired- the tired that needs sleep and the kind of tired that needs soul rest. And I recognized that I still needed a lot of soul rest. And so there were days that I did physically very, very little. But I decided to start using those times when I, in the past would have pulled the blanket over my head, I decided to start using those times for things that might be helpful. 

Terry [00:08:31] With little energy, but a lot of determination. Jenni began to read memoirs of people who had overcome great odds. She learned about her illnesses, so she'd better understand them. And she played uplifting music on repeat. 

Jenni [00:08:44] And those were just little baby steps that I could take while I was doing Soul Rest, because my soul was so weary at that time and physically doing things agitated it. But if I could just do something from my chair and make some progress, then I felt like I was doing something that was valuable. 

Terry [00:09:08] As her energy levels started rising, she took slightly bigger steps. 

Jenni [00:09:12] Sometimes it was  just not declining an invitation from a friend to go out to eat or go to a movie. Because depression tells you decline, stay home, isolate. And I started allowing myself to go do those things. And in fact, almost insisting with myself that I do them, not in a mean way or a hostile way, but just insisting that I go ahead and do this. 

Terry [00:09:36] She also took an online class on grief writing and when she felt even better, but still not great at all, she says, Jenny challenged herself to practice yoga. Join a divorced care group at her church. Do some solo traveling and commit to doing something creative each day. Even things she wasn't good at, like gardening. 

Jenni [00:09:56] But I can't tell anyone exactly which ones had the greatest impact. And it doesn't really matter because every day I was saying yes to myself, yes to my healing. Yes to hopefulness. And there were times that I did the baby step and I felt no stronger. No better. There were other times that I had a few hours of relief from the depression, from feeling so, so lost and dark. And then there got to be times when I had little bit longer periods of time. 

Terry [00:10:29] Eight long years into her depression, Jenni had what she calls a breakthrough. A small, quirky house she'd had her eye on for years. Came on the market. 

Jenni [00:10:39] And before it, it starts to sound like, well, you get a new house and then you all of a sudden your depression is gone,  it's not like that at all. I feel like it was every one of my little baby steps moving me closer and closer and closer to finding some level of happiness and fulfillment. It just happened to be that this house brought me great joy, and it's really one of the first things that I had felt joy about. 

Terry [00:11:08] Not only joy. Jenni has named her home her House of Peace. 

Jenni [00:11:12] And this might seem strange, but my depression literally disappeared as I moved into this home. And I feel strongly that every one of my baby steps was a step toward this house, toward this place where I would find peace. And for me, it just never, ever give up, because after eight years, it's really easy to say peace will never come, joy will never come. But it did. And that is what I would like other people to hear and believe for themselves. That eventually headed in the right direction. you'll get where you want to go. 

Terry [00:11:53] And you might not have been able to have the energy to look at, let alone move into that house or to to feel its peace had you not taken all those steps. 

Jenni [00:12:02] Absolutely. That's a beautiful way of stating the process. Very much so. I don't think I would have had the energy or the even the inclination. Because, in the dark days, I wouldn't have done something like that. I would have just ignored the message, probably. But I am so glad I didn't ignore that message. 

Terry [00:12:23] In my mind I'm seeing a scale because, you know, at first it was all of those things that were happening to you, including your son, including your marriage, including your friend, including all of those things. And obviously, that would tip the scale. And we're not recording video, but I've got one hand in the air and one hand down. And then when I think of all of the steps, the baby steps, all of the things you did from trying gardening to yoga to this to that and I am now making that scale sort of balanced in my mind. And it seems like you had to do that many things to counter that many things. 

Jenni [00:12:58] Yes, that is beautiful illustration. I love that. That's exactly what was happening. 

Terry [00:13:03] Jenni wants to make clear that it's not like really difficult things have stopped happening in her life, but they haven't thrown her back into depression. 

Jenni [00:13:11] And I do still continue the baby steps. It's important that you don't reach your goal and then say, okay, well, now I'm done. I still continue with baby steps literally every day. Some of them change, but they're still there. 

Terry [00:13:24] Maintenance. 

Jenni [00:13:25] Yes. Definitely (?) 

Terry [00:13:27] So those two words that you used, joyous and peaceful, that seems unattainable when you are in depression and for many people not in depression. That seems like, you know, the top of some mountain. Joyous and peaceful. Tell me, what's that like? 

Jenni [00:13:46] Oh, my. It's really more joy and peace than I had ever before. When I wasn't experiencing depression I was just kind of living my life. And I had a lot of good things that happened during that time. And I did have a good life. But the joy and the peace that I have now from working through such hard, hard things is something that when I think of, I literally think of it every day. Every single day, pretty much as soon as I wake up  and then throughout the day I marvel at it. I don't just think, oh this is nice. I'm really glad I have joy and peace. I literally marvel at it every day because I did not think I would ever get here when I was in the darkest places. 

Terry [00:14:28] Well, I think you said it, but I just want to ask one more time as a close what you have to say to the people listening to a Depression podcast who very likely are not listening to it because they're experiencing peace and joy. 

Jenni [00:14:43] Absolutely. And that is something that that I think about a lot. The other people that are struggling. My helper nature comes right back and I want to help other people. It's been a goal of mine to help other people. And I know how I might respond if I was feeling really, really dark. I would probably think, Well, that's good for you, but I probably won't ever get there. And I want to just dispel that, I guess. I want to say that with the right effort and an adequate amount of time and just a deep desire to heal, that it can be done. And I think when you've waited a long time, nearly a decade, some people have probably waited much longer than that, it becomes so easy to get discouraged. But I hope that my story will give somebody a boost and help them believe that they can also overcome and and have that joy again. Or maybe for the first time, maybe they've never really had the joy and they can have it for the first time. 

Anita [00:15:59] Terry, I really want to say how much I love that image that you brought up of balancing the scales. We've got depression and I think of stressors on one side of that scale and then your joy and your piece on the other side. And when life is really, really stressful, the maintenance, those self-care kinds of things seem like they're the first thing to go. But that's actually where we need to have a talk with ourselves and remind ourselves that as much as possible, we want to try to make maintenance non-negotiable,  because the depression or the stress is is piling up. And if we don't keep adding on the other side of those scales, the things that bring us some sense of joy and that we'll get through this and this isn't going to last forever., those stressors and the heaviness, the weight of depression becomes more and more cumulative over time. (Yeah.) So I just love that as a visual image of people can sort of remember as things get worse and heavier on one side of the scale, what am I, what am I putting on the other side in terms of that self-care, the maintenance, keeping those those little things that sometimes they feel like I don't have time for 15 minutes of rest. I don't have time for my favorite show. And it's it's like that's when you need it the most. So it's not always feasible. You don't want to beat yourself up if you're just surviving. 

Terry [00:17:21] And I love that in terms of those things. And some were so tiny, some were so tiny because it's all she had the energy for, but that she described each of those whatever she could do every day, as saying yes to herself, to her healing and to hopefulness. Yes. 

Anita [00:17:39] That was amazing. Saying yes to herself when depression was basically just saying, no. 

Terry [00:17:45] No, no. No, no,. 

Anita [00:17:47] No You can't. No, you shouldn't. No, it won't make a difference. 

Terry [00:17:49] No, you aren't.  Yes, yes. 

Anita [00:17:51] All of those things. Yeah. And the thing that I respect so much about her,  I don't even know if it was a strategy, but she just sort of committed; I'm going to do something daily. So the need to do something daily, no matter how small. I feel like that chasm between where you're stuck and where you want to be is so deep. The amount of time it feels like it's going to take to get there is so long. It could easily feel like the tiny little baby steps that you might be capable of doing, like, how's that going to help? How's that possibly going to help? But just like I was saying on the scales, that that all of this is cumulative. Either the heavy stuff is cumulative, but the positive stuff accumulates as well. And so those tiny little baby steps will actually make more of a difference than trying to do it like in one fell swoop, which, as we both know, there's no way you can do when you're, you know, when you're just kind of flat out. 

Anita [00:18:56] And as a person who battles, you know, chronic fatigue symptom relapses, I know that sometimes the ability to do anything more than just even lay on the floor instead of the bed is one thing, much less trying to do some yoga or stretching. So I get I get that you can't sometimes do very much, but you want to do something. So if you're stuck in bed, listen to music, turn on a light, open up the window. That's that's one small little step. But it's what you do. And if you can go outside so you can feel the temperature, you can hear the noises that you wouldn't hear inside. It's really with depression, and I think healing from almost anything, it's about gently but consistently giving the brain some stimulation that doesn't go over into that I'm overwhelmed, agitated, overstimulated, can't handle, can't handle. But you want to not do nothing? Yes. Because then then we get that stuckness. So it's about what's the what's the small step- the exposure to visual or olfactory or auditory or sensory- what could you do that doesn't feel really bad, but it's more than doing nothing? And that can be a guide for what your your baby step could be that you could do that day. 

Terry [00:20:17] And remember, during the time she really couldn't get out of her recliner, she got to the point where she didn't have the blanket over her head that she read memoirs about people who, you know, metaphorically got out of their recliners. You know, she actually made herself aware of people who overcame huge obstacles to just implant in her own mind that it can be done. 

Anita [00:20:43] I cannot stress how important that concept of believing things can get better is for the brain. It literally is like a map where maybe the whole middle of it or your whole GPS is like it's blurred out, but we've got the destination and we know we know it exists. And we know where we are. And again, that that difference can seem so huge. But if you don't even have a destination, you don't believe you can get there, you don't believe you can get well, the chances of fighting through everything you're going to need to to get to there, go down. So, absolutely. I mean, she just she just fed her brain the information that said you're going to get better. It's going to happen. Hang in there and do something. I mean, that was her response. Do something. Just do something every day. 

Terry [00:21:36] And far short of getting well, which seems like it's a capital W at that point, just the littlest bit better, because those little bits, as you say, are cumulative. And, you know, but but for me, the idea of I'm going to get well, you know, that that would seem grand when I am like, but I can't really shower.

Anita [00:21:53] As if you have the ultimate control, right? Like I can make this happen easily. But you can make it happen. You can do your part, is sort of what I think of . You know, you can do your piece of it, which is do one small thing.  And whatever that is that you can do that day, that's what you can do. So again, no shaming, no blaming. I just loved she was feeding herself the right stuff. She was helping herself to do what she could do each day, even if it was just the tiniest, tiniest, smallest thing. It doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter how small it is, as long as you keep going. And again, with that idea in mind that the future is going to be better than this, this is not going to last forever. And of all people, I mean, how long this took for her, she had every right, of course, you know, to to just feel like, is this ever going to stop? And then depression would have just like said, no. It's never going To stop and you're done and you're cooked and that's it. 

Terry [00:22:55] And life was saying it with just repeated traumas. (Absolutely.) It just didn't stop. 

Anita [00:23:00] That was the cumulative I mean, how many hits can you take without the chance to recover until.. yeah, it is it it can happen to anybody. I just feel like, you know, she, of all people, had every right to kind of lose that hope, I guess we would say. And she didn't. She just said, okay, I don't know how long this is going to take. I don't know. I just know I'm going to get better. Other people have gotten better. I'll do my part. I'll do that one small thing every day. And what a difference. That's honestly, if you're dealing with that huge of an issue, you don't want to overwhelm yourself by trying to do too much to get better. You want to do small things consistently, and that's the recipe. 

Terry [00:23:41] And let's talk about where it brought her. She was the words "joyous" and peaceful.  And said not just more joyous and peaceful than she had been in depression, which is a pretty low bar, but more than she had ever been previously. And that's that concept of the storm changing us. It's like if you can get through and I know that if somebody is listening and they're in their depression right now, they have got to be putting their fingers in their ears if they're not just pressing stop on whatever they're listening on. But this woman's real. Jenni's real. Her story's real. All of the guests on our episodes are. We're real. I mean, hope is real. Recovery is real. It sounds like a bumper sticker, but it's such an important message. 

Anita [00:24:22] It really, really is. And I mean, she didn't sugarcoat this. She didn't in any way, you know, portray her experience as easy. It wasn't. It was long. It was hard. But she has she has exactly the right attitude. I'm going to get better. I don't have to know how. I just need to do what I have control over the best that I can today. And I'll do the same thing tomorrow. And I'll do the same thing the day after that. And that's how you get out of it. That's how you get out of those places. And we've been there. We know it. That's how that's how we get through it. 

Anita [00:25:02] We truly hope that our podcast brings a little more understanding, helps you better articulate and reflect on your own experience with depression, or better understand how to support someone else who is struggling. 

Terry [00:25:16] If this episode has been of comfort or value to you know that there are hundreds of others like it in our archive, which you can easily find at our website. Giving voice to depression.com. And remember if you are struggling, speak up. Even if it's hard if someone else is struggling, take the time to listen.